6 comments on “The State of Us? A Rift in Echad !!!!

  1. I have read the first lesson and part of the 2nd. I am unclear on a few items. I guess that I will research them but I leave comments so that you can keep in mind questions that lay people might have.It seemed that you were saying that the name “Y’hweh” actually means “the word”. This I will have to research when I have time. It was quite astonishing to me, if this is the correct interpretation that disparaging His word is what is truly meant by taking the L-rd’s name in vain – astonishing but much more sensible than just “Oh you mustn’t swear using His name , utter his name or write all the letters in his name” As these are more peripheral nods to much deeper and more meaningful reality of disrespecting the name of Elohim. The other question I have besides the Y’hweh meaning is what is meant by “middle trinity” when you mentioned ” middle trinity arguments” were cause enough for persecution. As a Christian attendee of a synagogue I was exposed for the first time in my life to the term echad and the possibility of the “trinity” being somehow “taboo”. I always thought of G-d as an egg. Anything less than all three parts is not an egg, While still being “egg” they do not get the name of “egg” when they are by separated. You’d say,” I scrambled some egg whites” or” I put only the yolks in the souffle”, so I figured you could speak of them separately but knowing that each was just a part of the whole and that only all together would they be called “egg”. Is this concept right or wrong when it comes to speaking of the 3 parts of G-d? Also, it was unclear to me how the “trinity” had pagan roots (if that is what you are connoting.) Here I am about to download the Doxology to sing when I visit the nursing home tomorrow (no kidding) and am met with this huge red flag. I never gave the terms “God in three persons ..Blessed trinity” a 2nd thought except for knowing that it was a cause of great agitation when it comes to Jewish people and the matter of echad. Since I had my egg depiction in my own mind, I saw “ECHAD” AS THE WHOLE eGG – SHELL, YOLK AND WHITE, WORKING TOGETHER TO MAKE AN EGG do its defining job. Okay, I hope I’m making sense here. Explain echad and trinity and trinity and pagan roots. If I am not to use the word trinity, explain why. This is rich and exciting stuff. Thanks for sharing it all. Tonni

  2. Shalom Tonni, thank you.

    Awesome observations.

    1st point: YHWH is Elohim’s (our Creator’s) name; It, in fact, is a culmination of everything we know to come from Him (what the IM is), the written accounts of same, His Word. No different to how we identify an individual’s manifested reality, Elohim’s name identifies His to us, (this is what the Word is) Tanahk and Bristhadasha, the writings define His manifested self (Name)… the name then becoming a Creator’s message to us. If we take His Word in vain (worthlessly) then are we not taking His name in vain? Another way to look at this is the concept of fatherhood that we know scripture tells us is more than that of a paternal or provider relationship (look up father in a Hebrew Lexicon :), such as in the case of Micah and the priest he brings into his household, he was called a father. A father’s word is that which the father (the Name) expounds, and that which the father expounds identifies the sentiments and wisdom of same. A Father can not be identified as a father if he does not manifest himself as so. This is no different to Elohim’s expounding to humanity, His Word is a Father’s manifestation to us the same thing as what John or Viv manifest, it is in the name of Elohim that His will is manifest and it is in His Word (even YHshua) that we find salvation, a fathers Word: By mispronouncing or misusing a name one may hurt someone’s ego, but by misrepresenting that name one causes injury, such as Elohim tells us He feels when we (Israel) fall from YHWH, His Word. Though I believe many have misinterpreted this concept in doctrine, the question remains, is Abba YH about ego? or is ego something that comes from man. I would put it to you that if He did have an ego He would have erased the human race along time ago 🙂 With that said, then should we not preclude that the 3rd commandment goes much deeper than what man has reflected it to be? At worse, all that can happen would encompass a blessing to the awesome manifestation of YHWH,…. Hope that the explanation makes sense 🙂 Remember, the prayer says, May His Will be done on earth (His Word in us) as it is in Heaven 🙂

    2nd point: Middle Trinity, was a middle argument to trinity and non-trinity, if you research the Council of Nacaea you will likely (depending on source – very important you stay away from doctrinal opinions – go to historic sources) see it mentioned. As you progress through the lesson you will learn more, if not ask away 🙂

    3rd point” Well, an egg is actually made up of much more than a shell, yoke and whites, in the yold are the genes that will code that egg to turn into a specific animal (repltile or chicken) millions of them of which without make for nothing more than an egg – scripture tells us who Elohim is, but very few ever want to hear the Word. YHWH says the Word is in fact One Word that comes from a union of great ones (Echad – One Word). The difnition of Elohim can be found online as well, but most importantly in varied scripture (ie: Gen 1:26-28, Gen. 3:22, etc..), YHWH (the Word) telling us that His manifested Will or Word is One from a union of many…. this goes completely against the Greek image of a bearded G-d, such as Zeus. There is more in the other lessons… definitely take notes please, we can address allot more once you get beyond the intro 🙂

    4th point: Trinity and it’s pagan roots? It is all in history that I point too, that too will be touched on as you progress through the lesson 🙂

    May (YH)WH’s will always be done in us (on earth) as it is in heaven, in (YH)shua, HalleluYH 🙂

    Thank you Tonni, it was great answering your questions. Look fwd to sharing more 🙂 You are right to seek 🙂 YHshua says you will find 🙂

    Rams

  3. Thank you for addressing my questions, though I’m not sure that I received specific answers from you other than that if I read and research I will find the answers. : 0 )

    1) I was not asking about the validity of what it means to REALLY take the name of G-d in vain, nor yet whether Y’hw’h as His name is scripturally correct, but the question was whether the literal translation of the Hebrew letters IN the name mean “THE WORD”?

    2)I see that you are going to require that I “learn how to fish”, so to speak. (ie: You said “…if you research the Council of Nacaea). ..in order to find out what the middle argument for “trinity” is.

    3)Did you agree or disagree that the “egg” picture is a sufficient representation of the three parts of Y’hw’h as Echad – yes or no? If no, please explain. (But I will continue reading in case you have answered that already.)

    4)Then you said that I must read on before asking about how the word “trinity” derives from pagan roots. I will continue on and see what more I can glean from your lessons.
    Forgive me if I sound a little demanding regarding answers. I require concise answers(usually using the language of my questions) along with precise places to look for accurate historical records in order to see if I understand and/or agree with what you are teaching in your lessons. My understanding of your response is that I will get a better idea of what your are teaching about trinity and Echad by continuing on with your expositions. Yes, I will and I WILL definitely ask questions if things are not making sense to me. Perhaps your lessons are intended for learned scholars of the scriptures and not laypeople but I will try my best to excavate the nuggets with my rudimentary knowledge. Again, thank you for responding.

  4. Thank you for addressing my questions, though I’m not sure that I received specific answers from you other than that if I read and research I will find the answers. : 0 )

    My pleasure Tonni,

    Your questions are very good ones and I agree research must be verified. Here is my feeling on our individual growth, historically we have been programed to get answers from man, that in itself is the most compelling reason why we see more than 36K denominations in Christianity today – does that sound like a union in one? … That said I give information that will not provide direct answers if not raise questions that we each then seek. What good is anything anyone tells you we do not walk it out…. I’ve done my research and am convicted by what I’ve learned. As to sources in history, I recommend non-affiliated sources. Yes, you are right, this is more than a lesson or a commentary,
    it is designed to get people accustomed to not depending on others for answers…. we should be nothing more than sounding boards, the Word ultimately confirming itself.

    1) I was not asking about the validity of what it means to REALLY take the name of G-d in vain, nor yet whether Y’hw’h as His name is scripturally correct, but the question was whether the literal translation of the Hebrew letters IN the name mean “THE WORD”?

    No, in it’s transliteration (in the literal) it does not mean “The Word”, it means various things, ie” the IM; He who was, is and will be, and so forth; YOD HEH WAW HEH was the Word that Moses heard and yet we also learn that Elohim is our creator – so what can that mean? After meditating in scripture daily for more than five years I have come to the conclusion it means YHWH is the manifestation of Elohim – the holy (set apart) Word of Elohim.

    2)I see that you are going to require that I “learn how to fish”, so to speak. (ie: You said “…if you research the Council of Nacaea). ..in order to find out what the middle argument for “trinity” is.

    Yes sister, I hope what that voyage brings is a deeper relationship for us all, did not YHshua call us to seek? But don’t worry, there are some references throughout the lesson…. I think that by the time you finish it, I hope that is the case, you may very well have many of your questions answered – if not, then please ask 🙂 Remember… take notes 🙂

    3) Did you agree or disagree that the “egg” picture is a sufficient representation of the three parts of Y’hw’h as Echad – yes or no? If no, please explain. (But I will continue reading in case you have answered that already.)

    My answer on the egg is, “there are more than 3 parts to it”, the shell, the whites, the yolk, but most importantly, millions of genes and other matter that eventually come together to form a bird or reptile. As to the Elohim of scripture, He is plural, but most importantly both male and female; trinity says there is the Son and Father and the holy ghost – we know YHshua was a male, what then of the father? sorry, this is another one of those questions that will come in time (hint? in scripture)…. that said, the three parts in trinity are male figures (that in itself should suffice), and then what of the concept of YHWH of armies? What then of the angels or the arch angels or seraphim, don’t they count? are they not creators too? …. the Hebrew /Aramaic definition of Elohim is “great ones”. All these things and more are in the lesson 🙂 Except the egg 🙂

    4)Then you said that I must read on before asking about how the word “trinity” derives from pagan roots.

    Yes sister 🙂

    I will continue on and see what more I can glean from your lessons.

    Thank you 🙂

    Forgive me if I sound a little demanding regarding answers. I require concise answers(usually using the language of my questions) along with precise places to look for accurate historical records in order to see if I understand and/or agree with what you are teaching in your lessons.

    Once you finish, if you feel you are not happy with the sources I quote, there are many others online I can find you….

    My understanding of your response is that I will get a better idea of what your are teaching about trinity and Echad by continuing on with your expositions.

    Yes, the document does not end half way through 🙂 But I appreciate your curiosities, clearly you are on fire for finding truth 🙂

    Yes, I will and I WILL definitely ask questions if things are not making sense to me.

    Perhaps your lessons are intended for learned scholars of the scriptures and not laypeople

    We are all made in His image and capacity…. the similarity between the lay person and the scholar is, at some point they were both laypersons. I hope to teach people to seek and not depend on man, me included…. just a spring board, if you would…. the truth needs to be found by us each.

    but I will try my best to excavate the nuggets with my rudimentary knowledge. Again, thank you for responding.

    My pleasure sister…. thank you for the humility – it is a breath (ruach) of fresh air 🙂

    Shalom.

    May YHWH’s will be done in us (on earth) as it is in heaven.

  5. Pingback: Daily Word (1/9/2013) | thehebrewmessiah

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